RE: Hybrid Technology

[jimsum]

I don't think it is fair to judge current hybrids based on economy. However, there is a chance that these things will be produced in the hundreds of thousands, or that gas prices will go up drastically, and they will prove to be a good value. I don't know why financial considerations should enter into it, anyway. Just about every conventional car has an optional engine that costs more money and yet gets worse mileage. Why do auto reviewers always seem to prefer these optional engines when it makes absolutely no financial sense to pay more for an engine that is going to cost you more in gas?

Of course, auto reviewers prefer the optional engines because they like them better and the financial considerations are not important. Why is it wrong to value low emissions and high fuel economy over financial considerations? If people can brag about horsepower, 0-100 km times and top speeds, what's wrong with bragging about fuel economy? At least fuel economy saves me some money; I doubt I’ll ever get a chance to go 200 km/h.

Hybrids are exotic vehicles, and there is a risk that these things could turn out to be lemons. But, when was the last time Toyota or Honda introduced a new model that turned out to be a lemon? I'd think the risks are the same as buying a low-volume model like the Honda S2000 or the Acura NSX. I think these companies have a good track record. The Prius has been offered in Japan since 1997; it has a pretty good track record.

It is also quite possible that these cars will become very popular, in which case they won't be exotic. Were people who bought the first New Beetles crazy to do so?

Finally, about trade-in value, I just sold a 1992 Honda Civic SI that I bought new and drove for 264,000 km. I expect that I'll drive my new 2004 Prius into the ground as well; so trade-in doesn't matter (I ordered in mid-September, so I don’t know if I was influenced by the hype :-). If trade-in is important, the value is going to be totally dependent on how reliable these things are. If first generation hybrids are going to be worthless compared to new hybrids; what will gas-guzzling conventional cars be worth?

[webster7]

:o Jimsum,
I agree with all that you say. I would be glad to pay a premium for the ability for my car to get 50MPG, be able to be recharged in my garage,
retain the use of the fold down rear seat, and be able to make short trips on electric power alone. None of these features are contained in the present Honda Civic Hybrid. My priorities are quality, usefulness, comfort and economy. Unfortunately, many people buy a car for the prestige value, letting economy, efficiency and ergonomics go by the board. I am looking forward to the Nissan Altima Hybrid to see if it features the items I want.
Ken Hoffman (webster7)

[The General]

Jimsum, you make excellent points. Time will tell how these cars will behave in our markets and our climates.

Your wish will come true webster7. Along with the Altima, there is the Accord and, possibly to a lesser extent, the Escape Hybrid.

Auto journalists are generally enthusiasts so they like to power but also, what tends to sell at the moment, maybe more than fuel economy, are the powerfull fast expensive cars: Mustang, F430, SLR, DB9, etc... I can't imagime a Scion xA ever being on the cover of Road & Track...

There certainly is a group of people who is more interested in economy and reliabilty and there are some sources for this type of information.

Times are changing?! :idea:

[The General]

"Unfortunately, the Honda Accord Hybrid cannot be driven on
battery power alone and the fold down rear seat is gone."
webster7

Very true but it could be a compromise without much compromise. Most fully electric vehicle are not "road worthy" and not very convenient.

I'm sure that in time reason will take its rightful place and we will make do without SUVs and cars that can't do at least 25 mpg on average.

In the meantime, these hybrids are the way to go or, diesel vehicles may also hold an answer.

[snoproblem]

The more people buy good-quality hybrids, the more of them carmakers will manufacture and make available. Witness the pattern emerging with the Prius. Other models can and will follow. The resulting competition will eventually lower the average unit price, resulting in more sales etc.

I'm sure this trend has not escaped the attention of the oil companies.

Once I'm in the market, I'll be heading to the nearest Toyota dealership to purchase a Prius. Wait times notwithstanding! :roll:

:o There's a couple of postings I should have placed in this forum area! Live and learn...

[The General]

:o There's a couple of postings I should have placed in this forum area! Live and learn...

Don't worry about it.

You are right, demand drives the market.

I remember I paid 650$ for my first VCR! Now a better, faster and more reliable one can be had for 100$.

Same thing will happen to the Hybrids.

[snoproblem]

I just read the new article in the 'green wheels' section (A Strange and Different World, part one). Good one!

I've often wondered to what extent car marketing influences our choices. It goes a long way towards explaing the number of urban motorists who buy, for instance, massive SUV's that will likely never be employed toward their intended purpose...whatever that is.

[snoproblem]

I don't know about marketing influence, but I've been looking at the new Dodge Magnum and I found myself wanting one badly. Maybe I need some of that de-programming, like in the article....naah. Just a male thing!

The one with the Hemi can tow 3800 pounds! 8)

[The General]

I think it's just the impression that bigger is better, more and safer. On a couple of these points, it is completely false.

But I understand. I'd love to have a Yukon XL Denali just for the hell of it.

[woohoo!]

I remember I paid 650$ for my first VCR!

Boy, did you ever get scr***d! (just picking on ya)

[The General]

That was back in 1986 or something...

It weighted 40 lbs and was bigger than most microwaves.

Anyhow, back to the Denali... :blurp:

V8, 6.0L 335 hp, 375 lb/ft of torque!! rrraw!! Chrome, leather, 7 000 gallons of luggage space and an 8 000 lb towing capacity (to tow my race car of course!) :twisted:

[snoproblem]

Do I hear a Tim Allen - style gruntfest coming on? :lol:

Yeah, I hear you. With me, part of the reason I show favour to the Mag is family history. One time, when I was around 11, my Dad brought home a '72 Chevy Custom Cruiser station wagon, first cousin to the one on "That 70's Show". What made this one a little different? It had a 455 cubic inch V8 under the hood. Shoulda heard that sucker purr...

Was this an option for that model, or did someone drop that engine in, for God knows what reason, on their own? :?

[woohoo!]

Well, I know Oldsmobile had "Rocket 455" engines, but Chevy? I'm not sure...!

[The General]

Chevys had 454s... So I thought. It appears that the 455 was optional back then in the Chevy. The first car I ever drove was an 1988 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser with the 307 cubes. I think the Chevy was a Caprice Estate and not a Cruiser.

This is a 1973 but the 1972 was identical.

http://www.usfreeads.com/cgi-bin/uploads/images/254314/73capricewgn.jpg

Check out these pices of one for sale...
http://www.chooseyouritem.com/classics/photos/73500/73881.1972.Chevrolet.Caprice.Kingswood.Estate.4-Door.Station.Wagon.9.Pass.jpg

[snoproblem]

Good call, General. The picture fits. I wasn't sure about the GM branch, so I spitballed 'Chevy'. OK, 'Olds'.

I still find it a little strange that V8's that size were options... on a station wagon. :?
I guess people would have picked it for towing, maybe.

[The General]

Or doing smoke shows in the shopping mall parking lot... :P

[snoproblem]

Or doing smoke shows in the shopping mall parking lot... :P

8)

[The General]

With one hand and one foot sticking out the window while smoking a cigarette...

Wow, talk out about going off topic. :hippy:

[snoproblem]

Ok, ok, hint taken...

I was just thinking. If I were to buy two cars, I'd get a Smart and a Prius. That way, when I'm preparing to go somewhere in the Prius, I could say I'm taking the 'gas-guzzler' for a trip! :jester:

[The General]

Ok, ok, hint taken...

I wasn't talking about you... I'm no better.

Anyhow, I believe it was said before; time will tell how well the Hybrids survive in this climate (Quebec / Northern Ontario for example) and then we'll have a better idea about the reliability.

As more and more manufacturers develop the technology, things are bound to get better.

[R.S.]

Diesel hybrids (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6151220/) ... mmm

Now that´s the ultimate fuel saver! Unless mini thermonuclear reactors would be developed soon. :P

[The General]

300 lb/ft of torque all the while doing 100 mpg :twisted:

[lboucher]

A strange and different world - Just a quick comment to the author of the article series:

Before we all get pro-hybrid and start bashing diesel fueled vehicles (don't get me wrong, I'm 110% for hybrids!), we should tell readers the whole truth when comparing Diesel fuel to gasoline powered hybrid cars.

I don't have the exact numbers with me, but the amount of pollutants that are generated when burning diesel is about twice that of hybrid cars - fact. However, how much more energy does it take to produce gasoline (vs. diesel), the same gasoline that supposedly dumped only half of the pollutants in the environment? :idea:

...something to add to the re-programming subroutine; more to come...

[The General]

Great little pieces of info. I'd really like to read more about it.

Because gas is used in the production of many other "household" products, reducing the actual consumption is important. We can live without cars (I think...) but it would very difficult without certain plastics.

Keep it coming.