Korean performance update vs the 3

[driftor]

Can't believe I'm still learning about cars. On the 1997 Elantra SE A new exhaust header cracked 1.5 years after installation. That has beeen the worst of the Elantra surprises -- Cracked just after the one year warranty was up and I thought it was the 'pipes'. Sure, I made a fuss. And then the price of the manifold (alias header) rose by $150 two months after I got the estimate.

Hyundai says it's an improved design.---Well it roars at highway speeds as if it were part of a race package. OK I will check to see if the new Filtercharger I put in is to blame.

Finally got a $55 K&N which may be partly responsible for the intake? 'roar'. But one thing is clear--the throttle response is a dream with the performance filter--wow!! like in right now I can always get the drop at the lights.

But otherwise still no other performance parts for the Hyundai EXCEPT one Speedy dealer is offering a performance muffler for $77, or $100 installed. I was all ready to proceed to replace my 188,000 kilometer muffler, and could not believe the answer:

My original muffler is still in pristine shape--and highway miles are the reason it won't wear out. I don't want to throw out a pristine muffler--but I would have gotten it anyways, 'til I saw my bill for the exhaust manifold--- "over 600 dollars"---.

Many tuner parts are available for the Mazda 3 however--I'll wait until then. Finally---a car better than my Elantra SEwith the Porsche suspension--yes, Hyundai wants to keep that a secret--. And the Mazda 3 looks like a BMW through my eyes.

Just one more loose end. I could get a BMW 3 series 1997 to 1999 for the same price as the 3 (Mazda not M3),

Driving a 3-series that is (as in BMW) is the one driving expience I must have before I move on. I'll let yo'all know if it really is the ultimate. (that's if I survive my upcoming open-heart surgery)--------Yes I have the same problem as Arnold Schwarzenegger, come from the same country, look like him and am the same age--Just a coincidence? ask any Hummer. and NO I'm not running for President.

Ciao (yes, the Italians are our neighbours, too--but we like to borrow from all our neighbours.--Austria neighbours of course--now also including Canada (get it, Arnold's neighbour).

[The General]

Everyone learns something new every day.

I'd think twice about the 3 series. It will be more expensive to insure and much much more expensive to maintain. You must not forget that you are comparing a 40 000$ car to a 20 000$ car.

The Bimmer will have a nicer drive but I'm not convinced it will be a better car in the long run.

[driftor]

Welcome to the "learning each day" club. I don't think it's that obvious to learn something significant every day. My kids always ask me"How come, dad, we always have an adventure with you, and never have one with mom"---OK mom is not a car einthusiast.

Still I finally drove the Beemer, and loved the sophisticated, but surprisingly boring way it drove, but twice the price it was not worth, sorry and the stability in a straight line was missing which I have with a faster steering response--on the Hyundai. Better yes, but not by that much.

[The General]

You have chosen wisely.

When the kids move out, then buy yourself a nice 5 series. :lol:

[driftor]

How did you know I was looking at the 5 series that my neighbour loves, even talked to her about it?

Now I found an '03 325i to rent and it was much better than the '97 328 BMW as I suspected

Yes, and I appreciate my Elantra all the more for handling much more like the BMW than I would have suspected. Similar balance in mid-corner, but with more stability--even though my FWD drive would come tail out I can always anticipate that terminal understeer is not far behind--before I get too close to that onor off-ramp rail.. And the handbrake is nearly non-funcitional on the BEEmer, and it's no fun with the stability program engaged-- OK to be honest BMW did allow quite a bit of drift before pulling the plug on the sideways--enough looseness allowed to please all but the most hardnosed drift enthusiasts.

Still I feel more secure in pulling FWD-front wheel drive-- safelyout of a broadslide. Still I would not want to go to a drifting competition in FWD-- but on the street stability and control are more important than ultimate style Rally techniques, and we used to brag how us FWD's could commit to a deeper corner entry slide angle without spinning out.

But that was in the olden days--decades ago--now RWD is back in again--trouble is I'll have to wait a long time to AGAIN get a rear engine to go along with it--that '70 Beetle with refined rear suspension (ie double U-joint--forget the swing arms) was something elseand before the swolen nose of the SuperBeetle-dying for an authentic remake.

[The General]

WOW! :shock:

Do you give lessons on how to do all this? I must admit that I like driven hard on a track but I can't imagine drifting on streets. It is quite impressive to watch though.

[driftor]

OK it's much better to practise on a track. I learned on snow rallies which I really enjoyed, and control is easier with a rear drive; and the police driving instructor that picked me up once was always drifting too--he said it was safer, telling me not to stop sliding.

Literally drifting is not sliding, and it used to be a 23 degree drift for optimal cornering, that's the difference between where the car is going and the direction in which the tires are pointing. But with these low aspect ratios we have on tires now there is not much drifting. We are actually sliding and now call that drifiting.

My drift angles are about 5 to 10 degrees normally but I can find safe places like a roundabout to do up to 15 front and 20+ rear. Recently I did about 20 front and 40 rear, and thought that was not possible without any hint of sliding. My rear tire pressure must be low, I checked, but it wasn't--but it was so easy to control just with the throttle--no left foot braking needed. But you do have to watch for sudden even slight changes in road camber which will really affect the amount of drift or slide. Even professionals make the mistake of underestimating the importance of whether the road slopes toward you or away from you--and so lose control.

In snow I do broadslides into corners as long as there is no possible car or pedestrian hazard nearby, but I practice in an empty parking lot first. And you have to know the temperature. Right around zero the ice patches are so slippery and unpredictably patchy I feel very insecure, and just try to maintain max traction and don't try anythin weird on the street. After it goes to less than some minus 6 degrees, I feel I have more control. Taking it in context, consider I drove my motorcycle on a half hour commute to work and back all winter, but I could not handle glaze ice. What can you do with zero traction, but I did drift around corners on the 2-wheelers. It wasn't as hard as you think on normal pavement because the performance tires are designed to slide predictably, and they don't squeal when they slide--I hope I can get the same tires for cars--and that's a whole new story.

[The General]

Are you reading from a book? I kidd, I kidd...

My technique consists basically of a smooth pendulum, trail braking with the left foot, opposite lock and then flooring it.

Not quite as poetic as your style but fun nonetheless.

[driftor]

Thanks for sharing your technique--I am assuming you mean a corner--then that would mean pendulum as setup on entry and on consecutive curves--like a slalom. I never liked the idea that I would have to wait for the car to swing the other direction, as in a slalom event. I was too impatient. Now I see that we have to go with the flow. My neutral Elantra has usually to go slight opposite-lock going into the corner because the road camber is designed for cars that understeer--so I'm quite aware of the pendulum feeling. I also try to put all the weighty items as close to the center of gravity as possible (e.g. behind the front seats on the floor). So I was surprised to hear that championship rally cars use the same technique except their ballast is really low to the ground. What surprises me is how little pendulum the champions use although they definitely do have a consistent left-right "rhythm" esp the for the sideways Finns.

I have tried accelerating out of a curve with opposite lock but I usually have gotten the car to overreact and swing the other way which really slows it down. I'm just starting to try left foot braking which makes it much easier to control the direction, than when using the handbrake setup I used to use on right angle turns. The idea is to slow down AND get all four wheels steering in the right direction when starting to accelerate and not to slow down too much sliding into the curve. And the back has to come out more to steer because the front end has to both steer and accelerate back up to speed. So my less dramatic cornering style turned out to be faster that the slide on entry I practiced earlier.

The paradoxical thing is that I felt the slides were safer ways to proceed then edging along near the threshold of adhesion and trying to catch the imminent slide that could surprise you at any time, and then I found out progressively that may well be the safer way to proceed as long as you don't overdo it--and that moderation may be the difficult part.

You know I've always had respect for Finns and Quebecois in how comfortable they were in slippery conditions. I still remember a steep icy downhill with a sharp curve and river at the bottom to catch you in case you ran wide. I let a few Quebecois run ahead of me. Then I tried it, and I made it after all breathing real hard (my youngster was in the baby seat, and my wife had me pegged as a maniac anyhow).

And my stepfather was a Finn who would drive his 4x4 in the wilderness
all winter long --going hunting--and he was never fazed by the slippery conditions that had me especially worried when I started to drive, on the cambered and deserted icy backroads.

[The General]

It's not much of a technique really. I use it, as you say, to slow down and to setup the nose to make sure it is pointing in the direction that I want to go in before entering into a curve. Also, I want to clarify that I did this on the ice, in the snow and on gravel. I would never attemp this on pavement.

By using this pendulum to slow down, I find that it helps to prevent wheel lock which I find to be a driver's worse enemy.

[driftor]

Of course it''s a technique if you usually use it in competition or off-road anyhow.

I'm especially interested in your avoiding wheel lock--I'm assuming you mean locked wheels --and not steering wheel lock-- the former scaring me in particular. The other thing that scares me, but has happened to me only once at slow speed (rear wheel drive) is locking the wheels on ice by braking so hard that the engine stalls. You always see it on world championship rallies--so being a good driver does not protect you from it.

The right technique is to disengage the engine as via clutch as soon as that happens, which is what I did, .. but I'm still wondering about the effect of an engaged engine on preventing wheels locking on the driven axle. I sure hope so since I decided on passing on the ABS option which would have cost me $4,000 extra on an economy car.

Interestingly I noted that Sato at the recent Formula1 race applied a small amount of throttle while still braking in a turn, and can't help wondering if it is not to prevent rear (driven) wheels locking up.

That's one thing I would like to get clear though I am experimenting with it but, as you point out you can't do a proper performance driving technique on the street esp not for practicing something newand dangerous.

We really need those tracks to be handy. My local track has a drag strip and had closed its road course recently I was told.

On top of that I'v heard that the police waits outside to harrass participants, for which Kenzie had scolded the cops on TV Moting TV I think)

[The General]

Interestingly I noted that Sato at the recent Formula1 race applied a small amount of throttle while still braking in a turn, and can't help wondering if it is not to prevent rear (driven) wheels locking up.

When I left-foot brake, I nearly always keep my right foot on the throttle to avoid locking up the front wheels and to avoid stalling the engine (I can't clutch, brake and gas at the same time).

Yes, I do mean locking the wheels, the drive wheels (FWD) to be more precise. By locking the rear wheels for a fraction of a second or a little more, by tugging at the steering wheel and goosing the gas, I can set up the car in nice controlled slides.

[driftor]

MAZDA 3
I bought the Mazda 3 for its balance on two demos I had driven, and lo and behold the one I bought understeered badly, and I had to check the alignment which was minus 2 degrees camber at the rear vs -0.5 degrees at the front, a -1.5 degree difference at the rear of less wheel camber; ok but does the rear end ever feel planted; it's just like only steering the front end and the raised rear spoiler really works on the highway, where the stability is really superlative.

Still I like to hang out the rear end and so have reduced the rear tire pressure by 5 pounds vs the 33-34 psi front, and it is just barely acceptable. A tire store clerk that housed an alignment genius (who suddenly disappeared) told me that the rear is adjustable on the 3 ; next I'll ask to change the rear tire alignment down to only 1.2 to 1.5 degrees negative. and see if I can get more than 3 degrees caster (vs the current 2.7 degrees) Caster is what the front Harley wheels have and sport bikes don't. On a car it's hidden.. Actually my current setting is great for sharp curves where I ought to get some tires leaning into the turn.

And on the steering feel---terrible on the Mazda 3 compared to the finesse of a Focus--and that's where I miss the Porsche tuning of the Elantra now. Hey the demos I drove were perfect--so I still have a chance.

And the one thing I was really trying to avoid duplicating in my new car-=-the sore top left shoulder blade on an overly stiff cushion--was even worse on the Mazda 3 I bought than on the old Elantra--so I have to wear a heavy towel between my shoulder blades to make the longer rides tolerable. (OK I have broad shoulders but the right side doesn't pinch)

................ so now I'm still looking at the Hyundai Sonata with the manual transmission and the six cyl engine. That's if I can't tune out these early peeves on a brand new car