Candidates for Our New Car

[jww]

Hi all.

I have mentioned previously on this forum that we will be looking to replace our 02 Altima which comes off of lease in a few months time. I have started the pre-test drive research of trying try to narrow down our options/choices.

Our criteria includes the following:
Performance:
large 4 cyl or small 6 cyl engine with plenty of torque and likes to rev, but balanced and quieter than the Altima
manual transmission
160hp - 200hp (give or take depending on how it responds in a test drive)
ABS/EBD
limited torque steer (the Altima is a beast in this category)
FWD or AWD
Able to use my current 16" winter tires and steel rim setup.

Styling/Utility:
4-doors with sufficient of leg room in the rear for at adults up to 6' to drive long distances in comfort.
Able to seat 3 in the rear in a pinch for short trips.
Generous and flexible cargo capacity.

Interior:
Good ergonomic driver's position with plenty of adjust-ability (I am 6', my wife is 5'6" and we both drive the vehicle alot)
Standard interior kit incl. electric driver's seat (memory settings not necessary), A/C, Cruise Control, CD stereo, tilt steering wheel, adjustable driver's lumbar support
Split rear folding seats

There are a few things that we really want but I recognize there is likely to be some give and take on these:
heated leather seats
auto-headlights
steering wheel audio controls
traction control
sunroof

I have been doing alot of tire-kicking lately, which is lots of fun, but now I want to start getting serious about what I really want in a vehicle. My thoughts have been vacillating between a soft-roader (CR-V, X-Trail, Tuscon/Sportage, Suzuki GV) and a small sports sedan (Acura CSX, VW Jetta, Volvo S40/V50, Mazda 3). I have also given some thought to the Mazda 5 - which is a bit odd considering the other vehicles I am considering, but I like the concept of the car, but need to get around some of the performance issues when loaded with people or luggage vis-a-vis highway passing capabilities. I also have thought about the Dodge Magnum but it's simply too big for what I want - I am planning to test drive one just for comparison purposes, but doubt that it'll make it anywhere near the serious short-list.

I will post some specific thoughts on specific vehicles and would appreciate any feedback you may have on the models I present. I'm also open to other options if you think they can fit the criteria.

Cheers.

jww

[jww]

I have already kicked tires on all the cars on my initial list, but yesterday, had some time on my hands and stumbled (literally) into a Subaru dealer to check out theor lineup. Now - let me say at the outset of this post that I had not considered Subies before as my perception was that they were spartan inside and very expensive.

The dealership was empty except for staff and one other tire kicker waiting for an oil change on his car. I especially appreciated the salesmen who simply welcomed me to the store-front and invited me to browse and ask when I had questions. I like that in a dealer - not someone to shadow my every move and blurt out all the benefits of said vehicle without giving thought to what my real purpose in visiting is. I especially detest it when they find out you have looked at other vehicles and then start tearing them up by making unfounded statements about reliability etc. of the compeition. A good salesman knows his competition and doesn't knock it - simply acknowledges that there are lots of options in the marketplace, then points out where their product may have an upper hand.

I first sat in a Forrester, and while I can now say that I appreciate the fabulous utility and great ground-clearance of this car, I still can't get around the styling. It's got this quirky kind-of snout and body style that is a bit on the ugly side. Traditional small SUV styling, I suppose. I also found the rear seat capacity to be somewhat lacking.

I then did touchy-feely on the Outback - very nice - but was turned off by sticker shock. This is when the salesman suggested that I look at the Legacy wagon - which he claimed is essentially the same car (I did some research when I got back home, and sure enough, this was a reasonably accurate statement). He pointed me to a base 2.5i wagon with auto which was in the showrooom so I walked over to it thinking "Oh sure - base with no level of trim and features to speak of".

Boy oh boy was I wrong. This is one nice vehicle. I forgot to mention in my original post that I am an unabashed UK wannabe and am particularly taken in by their vehicle trends. Lately I have been interested in the many sport-wagons that abound in the marketplace there. I suddenly realized that the Legacy 2.5i wagon just might be the perfect car for us. Living in Ottawa, I know winters - as well as ice storms (more freezing rain last night and today in the forecast) and I am really strongly leaning towards an AWD system because of that. Of course the Legacy has that as standard. It also comes with a very good level of base kit including a cargo cover for the rear, very comfortable seats with - guess what - electric driver's seat (on the 2006). 4-stage front seat heaters (much better than the single-setting on the Tuscon/Sportage) and all the requisite convenience features I listed in my initial post to this thread.

I would have to trade off leather seats as they are not available with the manual transmission (I know - very few vehicles have this option mix in Canada much to my chagrin). I plan to run it out on a test drive (perhaps today with the crappy weather to get a sense of what the AWD is really like). I understand from reviews that it's is a more sporty handling vehicle but that it can be as sedate as the next car - which would suit me very well indeed.

I can't convey in words how truly shocked I was at this car. It's styling is fabulous, it has excellent use of interior space, and gives me a good deal of what I want.

Anyone who either owns a 05 or newer Legacy (esp wagon) or has some experience driving one and can give some input/suggestions on it?

Thanks.

jww.

[woohoo!]

Having driven both a '06 Legacy and a '06 Outback, I can say that it's one fine vehicle.

I prefer the Legacy's handling. The Outback rides higher and is a little softer.

All Subaru vehicles are well-equipped, even the base models. Subies are expensive, but have lots of features. I liked the leather seats, but the cloth ones would suit me fine.

The 2.5i Wagon is, IMHO, the best choice of them all.

Or, you could check out the Acura TSX, but that's getting in little expensive at $35,000. You might get a good deal on a 2005, though.

[jww]

Funny you should mention the TSX.

Being a huge fan of the Euro Accord, I had initially thought on the TSX. This is an extremely capable car, which is equipped with everything - including my all-important manual transmission. As I have mentioned on these boards before, I have a strong preference for cars available in europe and the UK - they simply have better all-round handlilng than what is available to us here in north america. TSX prices for 2006, however, have placed it the bottom range of the old TL model which is a bit higher than what I think I want to pay.

Besides I am still very much leaning towards the notion of a sportwagon and AWD. Of course - this is why the Subie now makes so much sense (never mind that it's truly a nice looking car and very well equipped as a base sedan or wagon). If I were willing to move to 35K, then I think I'd consider the Outback recognizing that it's really just a Legacy with more ground clearance (and therefore easier egress for entry and exit).

Anyway - we were about to test drive on Thursday during the freezing rain, but my wife called it off as she didn't want to go out in the messy weather. Snow is forecast for later this week which would make for good conditions for getting a feel of the AWD performance in inclement weather.

jww

[XTrail1]

jww, before I decided on the X-Trail I drove the Legacy 2.5i. This is one heck of a nice car and it's still bugging me a bit, my wife did not want another wagon after our Focus and preferred a taller vehicle.

[jww]

jww, before I decided on the X-Trail I drove the Legacy 2.5i. This is one heck of a nice car and it's still bugging me a bit, my wife did not want another wagon after our Focus and preferred a taller vehicle.
Thanks for the encouragement - X-Trail is a consideration still, but the more I look at the Legacy, the further it is distancing itself from the competition - test drive notwithstanding.

jww

[jww]

We test drove the Legacy 2.5i wagon yesterday and came away with mixed reviews. But before I get to the point-counter point, some general impressions of the drive.

I found the adjustability of the driver's seat excellent - and even with not having a telescopic adjustment on the steering wheel I was able to quickly find a very comfortable driving position. The engine runs very smooth for a 4-cylinder. To compare, the 2.5 4 in our 02 Altima is very noisy - particularly at speed. Overall, I found the car very quiet except for some road noise from the tires (Subaru could perhaps do a better job with undercoating to reduce sound in the cabin?). I have already commented on the interior earlier in this thread, but echo my initial sentiments - very good quality cloth (and I am a leather snob) as well as seemingly tough. Brakes were fabulous - with a pedal that wasn't too stiff or too soft - just about right I think. The 5-sp manual tranny is very smooth (again, in comparison to the choppy, slotty long-throw unit in our Altima). The throws are very short and fairly precise. I did take it on a decent stretch of solid ice with some packed snow in the dealership parking lot, and was very pleased with the performance of the AWD as well as the ABS which controlled the vehicle pretty well.

As a result of the AWD I found no torque steer at all. In fact, I purposely threw the vehicle around corners, etc. to see how it handled. The somewhat large salesman who came with us and sat in the front held the passenger assist handle the entire time (it was fun to watch his face out of the corner of my eye). My wife commented that I drove way-too erratically - but I reminded her that I did so intentionally to get a feel for the car when pushed a bit. I would say that the wagon did indeed pass this test - but not necessarily with flying colours - but it didn't need to. I am not looking for F-1 perfomance, but do want to feel planted to the road - and indeed it was very well planted - much more so than the Altima (I think the absense of torque steer is the greatest reason for this).

It's funny how differing opinions arise though. My wife, who insisted on riding in the back with our 15 yr old daughter to see what being a rear-seat passenger felt like, commented on the fact that to her it felt cramped compared to the Altima (I had to concede on the space point, but felt the fit-and-finish was superior). To her, this translates to a cheap feeling vehicle. In fact, both my wife and daughter where left wanting in terms of the seating comfort. They felt that you sat on the cushions rather than in them. Passenger comfort is way up on their list of desirables - in fact probably first, whereas I am looking for the right mix of utility, good driving personality, top-notch safety, good overall performance, and good reliability.

Generally for my wife, there was no "Wow" factor and wants us to take out a Volvo V50 for comparison purposes. We both felt that the ride was considerably better than the Altima has ever been. Yet, with back seat seating space being a bit on the tight side - it made me wonder why Subaru didn't increase rear leg room when they extended the length on the 2005 model.

Overall I loved it, while she found it coming up short, yet couldn't really put a finger on it. Both of us did agree on the amount of cargo space - that is was lots, and we both liked the quality of the cargo cover and how easily it worked (not to mention that it can readily fit underneath the cargo floor when not in use).

I did find that the car seemed to sit a bit low - but do realize that this is the intent. I could get used to that as the driver's seat can be raised quite high if I wanted.

We both noted at how annoying it is that sales consultants insist on coming along on test drives (something about insurance, give me a break). In this case, while he was very professional and extremely helpful, he directed our route - which was almost all highway. I made it very clear that we would be back for at least one or two more test drives in inclement weather as well as on a twisty road (the Ottawa River Parkway has a nice twisty path just after the Governor General's residence that will readily tell you what a car's steering and suspension are capable of).

So - while I had some wow factor, my wife and daugther were left a bit wanting and want us to try a number of other vehicles - which I am happy to do. So - this evening my wife and I will do a bit of bit of tire-kicking together to come up with some options.

Any further thoughts on some of the negatives noted by my wife? We have been spoiled by the cabin space in the Altima for sure - but the noise, notorious torque steer, slotty gear box and somewhat rocky ride are not something I want to live with beyond another 6 months.

Also - anyone have a good sense of reliability for long-term (i.e. 160km) for Subaru vehicles? JD Power's web site is notoriously lacking in real useful information.

Cheers.

jww

[jww]

Latest Update:

1. My wife has drawn the line on the Subaru. The feeling is that is simply did not have the level of comfort or perceived kit that she desires for the price we are looking at ($29K-$32K). She still maintains that it felt like a cheap car.

2. At her request we kicked tires on the Sportage, X-Trail, Tuscon and Santa Fe. The X-Trail was stricken off the list immediately - she didn't like the looks and felt it was far too boxy and cheap feeling inside. We both agree on being able to live with either the Tuscon or Sportage, and both liked the interior feel and fit/finish on the Sante Fe (I can barely stomach the looks of the exterior though).

So - with the weather turning a little wintry, we decided late in the day to test drive a Tuscon GLS and Santa Fe 2.5 AWD in the snowy Ottawa afternoon. The Tuscon really surprised me - even shocked me! It was remarkably impressive - quite stable for a high-clearance vehicle. I had a hard time making it totally slide (much to the chagrin of the sales consultant in the back seat). On the other hand, the Sante Fe was terrible. It slid around on the streets like it was a sled sliding down an icy hill! Our 02 Altima with snow tires & no ABS is miles better from a traction and braking perspective. I only went around the block and right back to the dealer.

Tomorrow evening we will take out a Kia Sportage to compare (although I expect an identical experience to the Tuscon).

Having said all this I have reserved the right to drive a couple of other vehicles still. It was too bad about the Subie - it is truly a good vehicle - but no sense getting into something we can't all live with. I can live with the fully kitted out Sportage (my personal preference for styling and interior fit and finish over the Tuscon) if that's what it takes for both of us to be comfortable with the decision.

Of course there is still the question as to whether with 4 months of the year being winter, do we really want a 4wd - however, that's also why we drove it in wintry weather - to get a feel for how different it would feel from a car.

Thoughts on the Tuscon/Sportage (i.e. pros & cons for each) are most appreciated and welcomed.

Will post further updates as they develop.

jww

[XTrail1]

Well my opinion is I could not see myself in a Tucson as I find it does not look much better than the Santa Fe, and the Sportage either. Furthermore I would have great concerns buying a vehicle rated "worst" by the Consumers Report, poor on fuel to boot, no security systems, a temp spare tire. Why don't you wait for the all new redesigned RAV4, some dealers may already have them.

[jww]

Well my opinion is I could not see myself in a Tucson as I find it does not look much better than the Santa Fe, and the Sportage either. Furthermore I would have great concerns buying a vehicle rated "worst" by the Consumers Report, poor on fuel to boot, no security systems, a temp spare tire. Why don't you wait for the all new redesigned RAV4, some dealers may already have them.
Thanks a bunch for your input XTrail1.

Funny thing is - the more I look into vehicle ratings, the more I find things to be contradictory. CR may rate Sportage/Tuscon as worst a few months ago, and yet CG rate them both as best buys. CR recently reported an improved rating on both. It seems for every bad review you can find a positive one on just about any vehicle - go figure.

Moving to a Cute-Ute is going to mean poorer gas mileage anyway - so the entire decision has to include considering trade offs. We still have to look at a couple of cars as well which may swing things a different direction.

jww

[XTrail1]

I don't think you can compared CR to CG. I think research on both these publications is warranted here. I know CR buys and actually test these vehicles , somewhere in NJ if I recall.

[jww]

I don't think you can compared CR to CG. I think research on both these publications is warranted here. I know CR buys and actually test these vehicles , somewhere in NJ if I recall.
Thanks for the suggestion XTrail1. Other than CR being much more recognized, they do appear to be about par with each other. I am not relying soley on either of these research orgs anyway, and am being exhaustive in my research of expert reviews (both pro and con). There is some subjectivity in auto reliability reports so I am trying to be cautious and open.

I also have lurked around several of many individual manufacturer forums for some time as well - there is tons of honest opinion there from owners - which I am inclined to place more credibility in. Gas consumption is a huge issue with the Tuscon/Sportage - which is one of the criteria that will figure into the final decision. In the end, we may surprise ourselves and stick with a small car. Besides, it's not as if we are having to replace our current vehicle today. So time is on our side for now.

jww

[neseh]

Did you test 2006 Accord yet?

At least, from my experience, The driving and handling is great. mind you, mine is 4 cly, 160 hp. If you go with V6, top model, you will pretty much get al you needed, except for the AWD.

[jww]

Today we test drove both an Acura CSX and new 06 Jetta. We are definately decided on not going with a cute-ute/soft-roader.

Both these cars have reminded me all that is good about a well constructed driver's car. Both are nicely planted on the road, like to rev, handle corners well, and are extremely comfortable. In the case of the Acura it has a real luxury feel to it that just about surpasses anything else in it's class. The Jetta, on the other hand, has a typically classy european feel to it.

I have not looked at the Accord, and may still do so. I have driven Accords in the past and have found them to be more american in their driving feel than european. We are looking for a euro style driving vehicle that feels planted, has good torque, enough HP to get it around and blast past traffic on the highway when necessary.

Thanks for the suggestion we'll look into the Honda as well perhaps.

FYI here are the links to my road test results on both vehicles:

CSX:
http://www.auto123.com/en/community/forum/viewtopic.php?t=535&start=15

Jetta TDI:
http://www.auto123.com/en/community/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4171#4171

jww

[apl16]

you could try the elantra gt 5 door or the mazda 6 wagon/hatch. well within your price range and decent vehicles with lotsa cargo space.

[jww]

you could try the elantra gt 5 door or the mazda 6 wagon/hatch. well within your price range and decent vehicles with lotsa cargo space.
Thanks for your recommendations. I have looked at both, however, neither of these vehicles come with a 5-speed manual transmission combined with leather - a combination that is a show-stopper. Also - neither come with as high a list of standard features and safety kit as the Jetta or CSX, nor are they near as well put together although the Mazda comes close.

The Elantra would make an excellent choice as a 2nd vehicle, but not as our primary driver.

jww