Lift throttle oversteer and suspension tuning

[driftor]

My Elantra looks great. I want to sell it, but it still woos me (not woes, woos) and it's not a wuussz--how do you spell that version of cowardly cop-out anyhow.

Just when I thought it was all over, the Elantra handling improves again. I don't know if anyone has heard the earlier version years ago I posted here. The car had lift throttle understeer (alias stability) braking into the corner and then oversteer when I hit the throttle. Don't get me wrong, I like to steer with the throttle and the car is perfect for that and road feel, in fact better than the BMW 3 series in that facet. BUT I did not like the understeer going into a turn though the front never ploughed or protested, I want to steer with the rear wheels if only for the fun of it.

So now right after another wheel alignment, balancing thrust angles front and rear and adjusting the right caster to match that on the left wheel--giving me too much steering feel for my tastes-- still the alignment tech says that's more important than keeping the higher caster within specs.

So I now drove away with a balanced car--sport tires help reduce understeer--and it not only enters the corner in a balanced attitude but I can get a slight lift-throttle oversteer lifting off the gas going into the turn. Braking in a turn will normally balance front and back drift angles, but in a fast mid turn when the car ahead of me suddenly slowed down, my sudden braking made the back end come around to sideways--OK better than ploughing straight off the ramp or against the railing lights first. but NOT better than my passenger door against his rear bumper.

And I still love that in mid-corner a very slight amount of left foot braking will steer the back end very nicely.

I still have to test heavy braking in mid-corner to see if is safe under normal conditions. I think it was only because of the sudden downhill negative camber of the turn that I went sideways using front brakes only in mid-turn.

Still, as with the Matrix hatchback, I am leery of lift-throttle oversteer in cases where I have to stop suddenly in the middle of a curve. You know we need a safe test track where we can check out this behaviour safely before we get into an emergency where we don't have the time to decide the best course of action.

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[The General]

You must be some kind of seasoned pro or something to describe "drifting" in such a technical way. And you are doing all this on a late model Elantra!?

I love oversteer when I do ice racing in the winter. I use left foot braking around corners or off-throttle on the ice although in my old Jetta traction is a little hard to come by on the ice.

Do you have any pics of your car or of any of your manoeuvres? I'd love to see them.

[driftor]

Well, a pro is someone who knows that he has more questions than answers and goes about the business of getting the answers or at least finding the most fruitful direction, and I am on such a quest right now--and you might be able to shine some light and contibute to my current important question---remember the secret of an enlightenened pro is that they know how to ask the right questions more to know the right answers.

All right I am a pro in that I've worked with the research group to develop compulsory daytime driving lights: I even drove through the fog along the airport runway hoping that the oncoming car coming stright for me would avoid a head-on collision, and reviewed the study. And I did some peer review discussion with another Canadian researcher in the development of those chevrons on the highway. He and I agreed that we both would use a 3 second following distance on the highway, and probably only a 2-second distance in town, being in the know--but the problem was that we could not convey this or make it workable in the real world. And it's that communication that is the most difficult.

So journalists are in the ideal position to translate and make it fun. And that's the only way to go. I am actually continually surprised by how many people would like to drive properly, and hear handy hints (if they have time of course, --"aye there's the rub" [Hamlet's soliloquy]

Then snow rallies have always been my favorites, especially those snow banks and deep snow, but then I had a RWD with 50/50 weight distribution and winter tires.

The Elantra SE is the first sport sedan based on the Tiburon platform. Hyundai got Porsche to design the suspension and then also applied it to the SE along with the sport car's close ratio 5-speed. Better performance , but a sixth gear for cruising would be welcome even though 3000 rpm is about 110 kph. It's just that dron that happens just around 3000 rpm--hey, but car is perfect. The North American champion --Paul Choiniere I believe drove a modified version of the Elantra SE 4dr to the north Amercan victory.

So, I would have liked to write about and drive cars and bikes for a living, but generally I have been too shy until now, and now I'm lacking the energy I had when I was younger.

[The General]

My tool for snow rallyes was a 1989 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo. Lowered suspension, modified exhaust; very fast. Problems were a 60/40 weight distribution and a brake proportionning valve that refused to send more than 30% of the pressure to the back. My Jetta is more fun but I no longer have the budget to "race".

That Elantra had Talon/Eclipse underpinnings: Mitsubishi 2.0L Turbo and AWD. Very hot.

Do you give courses? Can you recommend any?

[driftor]

General,
I don't believe that you would want to lower the suspension for snow rallies. I was planning to install progressive springs to raise the 6-inch ground clearance a little, and there were still some silly deep spots that had me stuck, at least temporarily, or big bumps that would bottom out some part of my undercarriage.on exposed railway tracks

Well, the short solution now is that 3 days ago my son agreed to take the Elantra SE (so I won't have to give it up), and I put a deposit on a new Mazda3--OK I gave up on the ABS, mainly because of what former ice racing champion Ian Law says--I'm considering the winter driving course, claiming 70% longer stops with ABS --and I wanted to get ABS just for the slick ice. Only problem is, as Kenzie also stresses, that the non-ABS vehicle may not stop in a straight line--but then I would want it to slide so as to point in the direction I want to go.

Ian Law says: "We regularly demonstrate to our students at our Winter Driving Schools how ABS can take up to 70% longer to stop on ice than an identical vehicle without ABS. We have done some extensive testing at our iced facility.
"To do emergency braking on ice without ABS is quite simple. It
is a technique we teach at our Winter Schools."

The winter school is in Minden, General, to answer your question. or check his website at www.carcontrolschool.com. I know nothing else about the school,except that Ian Law invited me to take the course based on my question.

Furthermore, the ice racer who is now a Toronto Star driving skills journalist, has extended a challenge to any AWD that he could outmaneuver and overtake it in a Civic FWD with winter tires and no ABS. Surprisingly Kenzie says he would take up the challenge if externded to ABS vs no ABS. Jim Kenzie says ABS is much better even though he left the road in an ABS equipped winter rally car. We have a year and that is one contest I would like to see.

[driftor]

Sorry Matt, but that Hyundai would want to keep the Elantra's Porsche tuning A SECRET was hard enough to believe.

But that they put a Hyundai body on top of a Mitsubishi race car and then claimed that the Korean won the championship, and no compaint from Mitsubishi, and no mention during rally coverage. --- That is just too difficult to believe.

[The General]

It's been a while. The car was first developed in 1994. I may be mistaken but I do know that the 2.0L (from the Sonata) is the same as a Mitsubishi 2.0L engine. The Elantra's chassis was modified to accept the AWD system from Hyundai's HCD-III. I might be wrong...

It was driven by Paul Choiniere.

http://www.rallyracingnews.com/teams/hyundai96.html

[driftor]

Right--O.. They did use a Mitsubishi (borrowed for sure) engine pre '96 but then they ventured to build their own parts and make an image for themselves. I didn't realize that they had an AWD modification that early.

Sorry 'bout my boo boo- In my longer exposition I meant to say --keep the Hyundai's Porsche ""tuning a secret" was hard enough to believe.

[driftor]

I AM LEARNING FROM MY NEW MAZDA3 TO APPRECIATE THE QUIET, THE WELL-TUNED SUSPENSION, AND YES,--EVEN THE STABILITY--OUCH!! I MAY EVEN HAVE TO ADJUST MY PREVIOUSLY HELD OPINIONS.

A PET PEEVE OF MINE IS HOW MOST DRIVERS BRAKE LATE INTO THE SHARP TURN AND THEN COME OUT OF IT SLOWLY, SO CONTRARY TO PROPER RACING TECHNIQUE, WHERE WE DO ALL THE BRAKING BEFORE THE CURVE (IN THEORY) AND ACCELERATE OUT OF THE CURVE EARLY. NOW, I DONT LIKE THE WAY MY CAR IS PUSHING INTO A SHARP TURN AND I AM SLOWING DOWN INTO THE CURVE BECAUSE IT MAKES THE CAR FEEL MORE BALANCED.. I HAD NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT THAT MOST PEOPLE DRIVE HEAVILY UNDERSTEERING CARS, AND THAT I HAD PURPOSELY BOUGHT AND DRIVEN ONLY NEUTRALLY HANDLING TAIL-HAPPY VEHICLES SO THAT I COULD DRIVE PROPERLY WITH THEM.

I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M DOING THE SAME DUMM THING OTHERS ARE DOING AND PROBABLY FOR THE SAME REASON. THE REASON IT'S STUPID IS THAT WHEN YOU ARE BRAKING AND TURNING LATE INTO A CURVE YOU ARE USING UP YOUR SAFETY MARGIN WHEN YOU NEED IT THE MOST BECAUSE YOU ARE CLOSER TO THE LIMIT--BUT IF YOUR FRONT TIRES ARE DOING ALL THE TURNING YOU ARE ALSO CLOSER TO THE LIMIT VS IF YOU CAN INDUCE MORE OVERSTEER BY BRAKING INTO THE TURN AND SO GET THE REAR WHEELS TO DO SOME OF THE STEERING TOO, BUT..TO GET THE WEIGHT TRANSFER YOU HAVE TO GO INTO THE TURN PRETTY FAST AND BRAKE PRETTY HARD.

AND I WILL FEEL MORE UNDERSTANDING NOW AFTER BECOMING ONE OF THE MAJORITY OF DUMB DRIVERS BECAUSE I WANT TO DRIVE A BALANCED CAR. I WILL CONTINUE TO WORK ON THE PROBLEM SO THAT I STILL MAINTAIN A SAFETY MARGIN DESPITE THIS BAD HABIT I NOW SHARE--BOTTOM LINE IS I'LL HAVE TO GO SLOWER UNTIL I CAN TUNE OUT THAT DAMN UNDERSTEER; AND SO I WILL HAVE TO FIND PLACES WHERE IT IS SAFE TO GO FAST ENOUGH TO HAVE FUN--OR SHOULD I JUST TRY GIVING UP TO BE BETTER THAN ALL THE OTHER DRIVERS, AND AVOID BRAKING INTO A TURN ONLY WHEN THERE IS ANY DANGER--THAT LAST BIT ALONE WILL MAKE ME BETTER THAN MOST OF THE OTHERS. AND BESIDES I CAN BE FASTER BECAUSE I GEAR DOWN BEFORE THE CURVE AND KNOW WHEN TO ACCELERATE EARLY ENOUGH OUT OF THE TURN--THOUGH IT'S NOT AS EARLY AS IN MY MORE NEUTRALLY HANDLING OTHER VEHICLES---AND IF I FIND A WAY TO MAKE THE 3 CAR MORE TAIL-HAPPY I WILL FIND IT. (I FOUND ONE WAY ALREADY)

[The General]

I don't remember the 3 understeering so much. If it behaves this way, maybe you should take an early apex. This way, you will be far inside and you will have enough "safe" room to react.

Just a question, have you checked your tire pressure? Are you rolling on your tires' sidewalls?